Putting old 4cyl Datsun motors in Spitfires

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  • #43575
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster
    #43576
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    A year ago Paul from Melbourne emailed me about my datsun 1200 conversion of my spitfire mk1. That prompted me to put details on my page on our site. He’s since come up with a few more questions and I thought we should share the discussion.

    FROM PAUL (JAN 2005):

    > Glen, stumbled across your pages. I’m in the process of a similar
    > project, A14 with 5 speed O/D box. I would like to ask you some
    > questions re your engine mounts. They appear to attach to the ‘spring’
    > towers (?), not to the chassis, something I would rather do than weld
    > compression tubes thru. the chasis rails.
    >
    > Also, I’ve tried to come up with a forward curved bar that will run
    > across the front of the motor and mount to where the old enging mounts
    > where to stop the front end flexing…..do you think this would be
    > necessary for rigidness in the front end…….your comments would be
    > welcome.
    >
    > Mine is a ’63, that I’m trying to knock back into shape after a well
    > meaning but incompetant back-yarder reassembled without taking any
    > measurements! It won’t be right, but hopefully will look right.

    For those of you that haven’t seen one – here’s what my A12GX motor looks like in my spitty:

    [img:kudquggu]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/3852-3852-111032_09pa314752.jpg[/img:kudquggu]

    #43577
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    My initial response:

    > Paul,
    >
    > Firstly, now that I have time to respond properly…. It would be great
    > to see you list your car on our site and put up plenty of images for us
    > all to look at.
    >
    > To my limited understanding (of stock original spitfires that is) I
    > believe the engine mounts of the spitfire engine are retained in
    > original fashion and the datsun block has some brackets fashioned and
    > bolted over to fit to the spitty ones.
    >
    > The attached pics show the block with the brackets on, and there is
    > another pic of just the brackets …. One of which has the spit engine
    > mount still bolted on in the lower part of the pic.
    >
    > You are correct that they attach to the spring towers of the chassis
    > rails. I assumed this was standard spitfire practice but may be wrong.
    > By mounting fairly securely between the towers I feel that adequate
    > strength across the front suspension is present. However, I too have
    > considered forming some kind of a strut brace that goes over the engine
    > or arcs back toward the body to strengthen things. I’m running lowered
    > uprated springs with spax struts set to 7/10ths and expect them to be
    > seriously hard when I get back on the road. I am concerned about how
    > the tub and chassis will handle the strain. I think that it would be
    > nice but not essential. Pics of your ideas would be appreciated.
    >
    > My ’63 looked kind of o.k when I purchased over email… But close
    > inspection revealed massive rust and loads of prior panel work. It has
    > taken a year to finally get it all straight and relatively acceptable
    > (just the body work that is).
    >
    > Hope to hear more from you and see plenty of pics on our website.

    #43578
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    Paul responded with:

    > Glen,
    > thanks very much for the fast feedback. I registered as a member last
    > night and will put together a bunch of pics of my slow progress. In
    > retrospect I should not have bought my Spitty. It was far less complete
    > than I realised.

    Here’s the link to his page :
    [url:1z49605j]http://www.triumphowners.com/590[/url:1z49605j]

    > I’ve been stockpiling parts from all over the globe for the past 18
    > months and have spent more than I could have bought a running car
    > for…. but its the journey, not the destination!
    > Those pics were great, I’m just about to cut the sump and its good to
    > see a sample. From my measurements I thought I could just do a single
    > cut at the front and stop just short of the dip stick and have the
    > harmonic balancer just above the steering rack. That would put the
    > whole engine about 30mm further back….do you see any problems?
    >
    > I’ve had the A14 head ‘done’ and will be using a 32/36 Weber down draft,
    > but apart from that the engine will be pretty standard. The engine guy
    > says he can do me a cam grind, not too radical but one that will sound
    > ‘english’.
    > I’m not after speed (much), but after a useable and reliable car. I’m
    > 55
    > and had a range of MG’s (TD, Y, MGA)when I was younger and now just want
    > to enjoy the drive.
    >
    > Any info that you can provide will be very welcome. I’m the president
    > of a
    > single model motorcycle club (http://www.sr500club.org)and have about 100
    > members spread throughout Aust and a few overseas and find myself
    > spending many hours answering questions about our bikes, so I realise
    > that you also must get many requests.
    >
    > the pic attached was taken in the first weeks and I’ve moved on a little
    > since then.
    >
    > thanks again

    #43579
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    [b:1hwvyz51]I responded with :[/b:1hwvyz51]

    > Well, moving the engine back is a good idea. Clearing the steering rack
    > is the main problem. The oil filter is a major pain. I have a remote
    > one which is mounted too high and I suspect may starve the engine on
    > start-up.
    >
    > My motor could move back a bit as there is space. Just be careful about
    > heater hoses. I’m not running a heater so that doesn’t bother me.
    >
    > I would advise reshaping the sump – creating more space further back and
    > lower down. I don’t like the idea of reducing oil storage but mine was
    > already done when I got it.
    >
    > I too have spent way more than it would have cost to buy a full restored
    > car but that’s always how it goes.
    >
    > Exhaust considerations are of interest to me at the moment. Clearance
    > is very tight by the chassis rails so be aware of that. Moving the
    > engine back may increase problems in that regard too.
    >
    > Do you have any spares that you don’t need? We could trade.
    >
    > I need to see a picture of the door jam (complete) and the striker area
    > etc on the door. I disassembled mine without photos. Can you help ASAP.
    > There’s some bits on ebay that I think I need but I can’t remember what
    > the area looks like.
    >
    > Glen.

    #43580
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    The I placed this on my page [url:1giwa6k1]http://www.triumphowners.com/300[/url:1giwa6k1]:

    [b:1giwa6k1]Datsun 1200 conversion notes[/b:1giwa6k1]

    Plenty of people seem to be curious about converting the spitty motor over to a Datsun 1200 (A12) motor. Seeing as I can’t be bothered typing out emails to everyone that asks I figured I’d note what I’ve observed from the conversion in my car (that a prior owner had done). So here goes…

    From observation (and not having previously owned a spitfire) the changes are as follows:
    [list:1giwa6k1]An extra cross member has been welded at the back of the datsun gearbox on the existing chassis rails.

    The datsun sump was cut up and welded to a new shape so that it would clear the steering rack.

    The carbs are on the other side so some basic plumbing changes have been done. Fuel lines on other side – ignition gear (coil) moved to other side of bulkhead.

    The datsun is sometimes a cable clutch (well mine is) so the clutch master cylinder was removed and a sleeve welded onto the bracket to accept the cable. An alteration therefore must have been made to the end of the clutch pedal arm.

    The manifolds are on the opposite side so some exhaust work would have been done. Mine is custom at present and is CRAP. Some two-bit idiot with no idea about gas flow welded something together….

    The radiator hoses come out the opposite directions on the block so an alternate radiator has been used. A radiator specialist told me mine was a renault radiator. It has had an altered bracket used to hold it to the chassis.

    The datsun 4spd box has the selector in a different spot so the gear stick has been reshaped (I assume by blowtorch) to clear the existing hole in the transmission tunnel. There is a pic on the site of the bent selector rod.

    The oil filter pokes out directly where the steering rack is so some magic trix have to be performed to get an oil filter in there. Mine is attached by a remote housing and adapter plate to provide clearance for the steering rack. The remote connector has in/out hoses that swoop around to a filter mounted on the bulkhead.

    The engine mounts seem to be a simple bracket assembly of mild steel which has been shaped in such a way that it accepts the standard spitfire engine mounts.

    The prop shaft has been built by a custom prop shaft business (it still has a sticker on it for the business).

    The datsun gearbox and original datsun car would have been the same 4.1:1 dif as my spitfire so that’s all cool and the speedo drive seems to match the spitfire speedo.

    I can send pics but let me know the areas you’re interested in. Most stuff is on my page. [/list:u:1giwa6k1]

    #43581
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    [b:jotx75vl]More recently (today in fact) Paul sent this:[/b:jotx75vl]

    > G’day Glen,
    >
    > I have been watching your steady development on the Spit, well done.
    >
    > I’m still working on the Spit, back on it with fresh vigour. I’ve had my
    > sump reshaped, so now can work on engine placement. My plans on moving
    > the engine back have been foiled by the oil pump. I have a remote unit,
    > but even that gets in the way of the tower. So I’ve moved the engine up
    > and forward so my flywheel pulley now sits directly above the rack. Even
    > this has required me to carve away some of the tower’s strengthening web,
    > but I should be able to compensate with an additional web down the centre
    > between the existing webs..
    >
    > Some advise if you can help …………………..
    >
    > Another job is the rear gearbox mount and I’m trying to get a straight
    > line from crank to sump. Is it vital or the universals account for
    > mis-allignment?
    >
    > On the LHS (portside, kerbside) of the block I have 3 tapped lugs (
    > probably AC or powersteering?), In your opinion, could I mount the engine
    > mounts off these if I build a bracket off all 3?
    >
    > Your electric fuel pump? your blurb says it puts out around 3psi, is that
    > after its regulated or don’t you run a regulator?
    >
    > Speedo cable ………… is it standard Dat. and does it mate up to the
    > Triumph speed and is it accurate?
    >
    > Any assistance would be appreciated.
    >
    > paul

    #43582
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    Hi Paul,

    Great to hear from you again.

    My project has almost come to a standstill. My company is in full swing at the moment and the pressures it places on me have prevented me from making any real progress with the car for the last 6 months.

    Now, to your questions:

    Oil pump? Can you show us a pic on your page of the site? Mine is really close but as you can see from this pic – it doesn’t impact at all. The only problem I have is getting a wire onto the sensor. To remove the sensor I have to undo the engine mount and raise the motor a tad.

    [img:3c9a8ar2]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/676-676-111032_57dscf0011.jpg[/img:3c9a8ar2]

    I’m really curious to see what’s fouling against the chassis uprights. I thought the A14 was pretty similar to the A12. I can’t really offer any advice here as I don’t know what’s fouling. As you can see in my pic it’s all very tight but no mods to chassis uprights.

    This pic shows how close the sensor is to the upright chassis piece.

    [img:3c9a8ar2]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/823-823-111032_62frontsuspension.jpg[/img:3c9a8ar2]

    Re: the gearbox – straight line-of-sight shouldn’t be necessary. I guess a degree or two off is no major deal.

    Re: tapped lugs – I’d need to see a pic. I guess you need to think about what the lug was designed for and whether placing stress on it would be bad for the block. What’s wrong with making a bracket that mounts to the original datto ones? Even if it’s a right angle shape it would be o.k.

    That subaru pump is anywhere between 1-5psi. as per its spec – BUT – it comes with a small regulator and seems to run around the right pressure. I’ve not measured it with a guage but I’ve read that it’s about 2.5-3psi.

    I have no idea how well the speedo cable works – what it came from – or if it’s accurate. It was on there when I got the car. It didn’t mate up properly to the back of the gauge. It had a piece of garden hose slipped over it all acting as a crude joiner. In theory I believe it all to make sense. But it’s not registered yet and I’ve not had it on the road.

    [b:3c9a8ar2]Some further thoughts since we last spoke:[/b:3c9a8ar2]

    After I cut my Le Man style side vents in the bonnet I was able to peer in through the side and have since noted how close everything is to the bonnet. With the GX model of the 1200 motor the carb manifold is angled upwards. On the front SU I’ve got about 3mm of clearance on the dashpot oil cap. this is pretty much the limits.

    I replaced the radiator with a toyota one. I measured it all up and thought I’d done well. Now that I’ve checked through the side of the bonnet I’ve noted that the radiator cap just fouls against the bonnet and I’ve only got about 5mm clearance to move the radiator downwards.

    Seeing as I did a full body off restoration I now feel like a TWAT for not moving the fuel lines to the other side of the car. It’s a bit silly having lines running around across the front area of the chassis just to get to the pump. This has prompted me to consider putting the fuel pump on the bulkhead (now that it’s electric) and then this would plumb in nicely.

    The gearbox / shifter stick is not really as well placed as I might like. Now that I’ve got all the interior back in place and tightly secured (something I couldn’t test when it was stripped) I’ve noticed it’s quite hard to keep it in first or third gear as it’s fouling a bit on the surround part of the tranny tunnel. In Pauls case as he’s moving the motor back further than me he should be able to get good placement.

    With the mechanical fuel pump so close to the mounts and custom brackets I had to actually jack up the motor and pull the mounts just to remove the pump. This was very annoying and awkward. Hence even more satisfaction that I’m now running an electric pump.

    #43583
    sjm
    Member

    Just some information for anyone thinking of this type of coversion to consider, as my every day hack is a Datsun Sunny Wagon with a modification or two.

    Proper GX motors are almost impossible to get hold of these days, and i would say keep away from Std A12 (1200) motors. The A14 motor in std form was only available in this Australia in the Sunny Wagon and very very early Pulsars. They have the same bore with a longer stroke and have a head with oval ports much bigger than the round ones on the A12. They to came in GX Spec and had even larger oval ports and the other stuff like twin Hitachi SU’s, cam, extractor type CI exhaust manifold etc. These too are very rare to find, I was luck as i already had a std A14 in the Sunny and just GX’ed it. The final option is to go A15 (1500). These were the std motor fitted to Nissan Vanettes, and there are plenty of them laying around in wreckers. The motor is basiclly the same as the A14, but with a bigger bore. I don’t think a GX version was ever made, but i could be wrong.

    One thing to watch out for on the A14 is that the inlet manifold has water heating/jacket on some versions and some have none. This will have issues if you wish to run Factory GX mamifolds and SU’s as I think they have the water jacket. My understanding is that all A15 motors have this water jacket. I was luck as my Manifold had no water jacket, and as a result the ports in the head could be opened up further than GX Spec.

    These are brillant little motors, and are almost impossible to break. I rebuitl my A14, 4 years ago with std 1mm o/s pistons and bearings, and fitted with std A14 head with the porting about as far as it could go. It has a Nissan 70 Degree works copy cam, double valve springs, electronic ignition, extractors and a pair of 40mm Webers, and alot of fun to drive. When driven normally it got 32 MPG! . Since then it has travelled 230,000 km and uses no oil. It has gained a 5speed G/box, but more on that later, and gone back to the std single down draft carb. This was due to cost cutting, as i bought a house, and every cent counts. The result was 38mpg nearly every day and 43mpg on a trip. Its amazing what some "breathing" can do to a motor.

    Now the issue of the G/box. I was very lucky and obtained a 5 speed in pretty good condition from a guy who had no idea what they are worth and paid $400. The usual price is at least double this for a fairly average unit, that has probably been flogged by some kid doing burnouts. The G/boxes have 2 different shift patterns, a std 5 speed arrangement and what’s known as a dog leg shift pattern, which has 1st gear to the left and back with reverse left and forward. Most are overdrive units, but there are dog leg units which are close ratio and have a direct 5th gear ie 1:1. I saw an add for one of these recently, completely rebuilt as new, with a price of $1,800, I remember Rallyequip in Sydney selling these 2nd hand Jap import for $195 about 1982, I wish I had a container full of them now! So if a 5 speed is out of the question you need to look for a smooth case A14 G/box as these are much stronger internally than the the other which has visible strenghting webs on the outside of the g/box casing. There are also conversion kits for the Corolla 5 speed, which is more readily available, but has lousy gear ratios, especially 1st.

    There are some good Datsun websites that will tell you more like http://www.ozdat.com.au, with a good for sale and wanted pages, and check the links to the Datsun 1200 modifiers page. Not a lot is done with these motors these days as most of the guys with Datsun 1200’s are fitting Nissan 2 litre EFI Turbos, but the information is there.

    If in doubt you can also contact Stewart Wilkins Motorsport, in Mulgrave Sydney, who did the short motor for me. He has built many 1200 motors for offroad racing. This is the reason the Webers worked so well on my car, he spent alot of time on the dyno with custumers cars years ago, and all the jetting is written down in his little black book! The other Specialist in Sydney is JTS Performance, St Marys NSW. He Rallied 1200’s for years and his knowledge is also very extensive.

    Good luck to any one doing the conversions, as its a great motor with enormous scope for modification if you wish.

    PS: More on Real brakes for 2.5 pi soon, I’ve recently started a new job and have been busy with that.

    Cheers All
    Stephen Marsh

    #43584
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    Hi Stephen,

    Thanks so much for the response.

    Can you explain the difference between the blocks in the area near the mounts / oil pump? I’m wondering what is going on with Pauls A14 v’s the easy fit of my A12GX.

    #43585
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    Glen and Stephen
    I’ve been flat out on the engine mounts and will explain my issues with the clearance around the oil pump. I had tried to mount the motor with the pulley behind and the steering rack fairly low. Everything went well except for the oil pump. I contemplated heavy mods to the shocker tower but have decided to go for a more forward mounting. I have still had to grind away part of the web but will add another web down the centre of the tower. This will give me the 12.5mm clearance required for certification.
    My motor is an A14 with a round port head that doesn’t seem to be one that was common in Aus. so I’m going to have to insert a few studs to use my side draft manifold/extractors. The head has 409 cast into it. (Stephen, any assistance on that would be great)

    I’ll post some pics on my Spitty page.

    #43586
    sjm
    Member

    Just read your last posting and must say I’m concerned that you have an A12 head on an A14 block. As far as i know all A14 & 15 motors have the oval ports, as the A12 ports and valves are quite small. I’m not quite sure what the casting mark/code means, but it will mean something. I’ll try a couple of the Nisan/Datsun sites and see if we can get a result. I suspect that a previous owner of the motor had head problems and took the cheap and easy option of fitting an A12 head, as A14’s are much harder to find and more expensive.

    I too had to install studs for the manifold when I fitted the Webers originally. Ijust took the studs for the exhaust manifold from a couple of 120Y’s at the wreckers. I have a picture of the std A14 manifold showing the ports Which I could email. I’ve attached it here, but I’m not sure I’ve done it right here (help). The outside of the black marks shows were my porting is at.

    I checked out the 1200 modifiers site, and found the answer to one problem. The engine mounts on an A12 are in a different position, however this could be inconsistant as I know that the mounts on the A12 & A14’s used on the Sunny’s 78-82 are the same. On further reading it would appear that the blocks used for the Datsun 1200 was different, with the mount position change from the 120Y (about ’74) on. It also stated that the altenator is mounted on the opersite side on these early A12’s. Mine is on the driver’s side. Will need to check at the wrecker, when they next get either in the yard.

    [img]F:My%20DocumentsAutomotive%20InfoDatsun%20DataDatsun%20PhotosStd%20carb%20V%20ported%20head[/img]

    Not sure what you can do regarding the crankshaft pulley, short of replacement with a smaller diameter, or a tooth type one, like a cam belt, which would be fairly major, but would look extremely cool!

    The oil pump is a problem, and have no suggestions here, but will look for some old Nissan Competition Catalogues I have stashed somewhere. They may have some alternative. Will keep you posted

    Cheer all
    Stephen

    #43587
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    Hi Stephen,

    Firstly to post images into the forum you need to cut and paste a link to an image that’s on the web (not on your pc as you’ve done). I upload images to my member page as per usual images and then once it’s in I right click on the image I want – select properties – and then cut and paste that address from the properties window.

    I concur that later model A12 motors moved the alternator to the aussie driver side and up top rather than down low. They also moved the distributor towards the back of the block rather than near the front (a spaced rendered useless once the alternator is up there). I assumed that an A14 came later than an A12 and would therefore mean that locating mounts and so forth would be the same as my later model A12.

    Paul,

    Now that I realise what you’re doing with the low and ‘back’ position of the motor I understand your clearance issues. So…. … to your question about strengthening the tower….I don’t see why this would be a problem. I doubt that you would need a bar to go across the tower tops as you suggested ages ago. But it couldn’t hurt.

    I’ll check the datsun1200 site for reference info on head casting.

    Paul, I’ve helped you link to your images in this post:

    [img:3n7438pc]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/4410-4410-111032_86oilpumprs.jpg[/img:3n7438pc]

    [img:3n7438pc]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/4411-4411-111032_10pulleyrs.jpg[/img:3n7438pc]

    [img:3n7438pc]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/4412-4412-111032_38dsc02839.jpg[/img:3n7438pc]

    #43588
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    I know this is a bit hard to see but here are my engine mounts. On the lower one in the pic you can just see the rubber spitty mount.

    [img:2mnrrmwy]http://www.triumphowners.com/uploaded/34/613-613-111032_16dscf0024.jpg[/img:2mnrrmwy]

    From what I can remember of the shape of things you’ll be needing a custom brake line shape too seeing as you’ve got engine mounts and so forth where the pipe usually goes.

    Now that I’ve looked more closely there’s no way the mount holes on my turrets are factory. In fact I can see the holes for the standard mounts. My brackets are bolted to the upright piece that still remains on your turret. That’s why my brackets have a bit of a right – angle piece to move them forward a bit. Our motors are in really similar locations. Notably yours is back another 10mm or so. You could easily reproduce the mounts I have – but I think your idea may be better as it will give better clearance near the fuel pump.

    #43589
    britishcarfreak
    Keymaster

    Guys,

    According to the datsun1200.com site there are round port a14 heads. See: [url:2cq9xioz]http://datsun1200.com/modules/nsections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=46[/url:2cq9xioz] and [url:2cq9xioz]http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5822&forum=1#61066[/url:2cq9xioz] for articles.

    This link [url:2cq9xioz]http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11288&forum=1#42539[/url:2cq9xioz] references the 409 head casting and the guy writing the article suggests that it’s an identical head to that on the a12a (later model A12). They also talk about port alterations and studs.

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